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Post by Walker (Newark GM) on Apr 24, 2015 9:56:04 GMT -5
Okay, but really, can we talk about how stupid Steph Curry is?
I like the Pelicans, but I can't say I'm a diehard fan, but that was painful. 20 FREAKIN POINT LEAD HEADING INTO THE FOURTH AND THEY BLEW IT.
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Post by Roar GM (Josh) on Apr 24, 2015 10:41:28 GMT -5
The hawks system doesnt work though. The Spurs (with 3 hall of famers) and the '04 Pistons are the only two instances where a team without a superstar has won a championship. It's great in the regular season, but it rarely works come playoff time. It'll be interesting to see if ATL can continue their success, but i just don't see it working against CLE.
I'm not sure if Love can be the best player on a championship team. I do know that Millsap cannot be the best player on one. That system is great for him as it is for all those guys. Nobody scored 30 points all season; that's just dumb, but awesome. And obviously injuries will screw up everything. If Millsap or Horford goes down, the Hawks aren't winning anything either.
Max contract players win championships. As much as it sucks, it's the case. There's nothing better than watching the Spurs demolish the Heat with ball movement, player movement, and team defense. However, there's always an exception to the rule.
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Post by Roar GM (Josh) on Apr 24, 2015 10:43:09 GMT -5
Okay, but really, can we talk about how stupid Steph Curry is? I like the Pelicans, but I can't say I'm a diehard fan, but that was painful. 20 FREAKIN POINT LEAD HEADING INTO THE FOURTH AND THEY BLEW IT. Lack of "been thee, done that". Were you at all shocked that they blew it though? You could just sense the Pellies were scared poopless when GS got it under 10. But yes, as a big AD fan, it hurts. I expect them to get blown out in Game 4. They'll be back though.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 11:08:51 GMT -5
Depending on the part of the floor Millsap shoots it better or worse than Love. Both Love and Millsap average exactly the same amount of FGA (12.7). Atlanta uses a system that shares the ball more than typical teams. Millsap being the player with most attempts. Millsap has not ever averaged 20 and 10, but there is an argument to be said that his defensive stops (1.1 steal difference) render the difference of 1.9 rebounds to be practically even. Millsap shoots a FG% of 47.6% while Love shoots a FG% of 43.4 (4.2% greater). Love shoots a 3PT of 36.7% while Millsap at 35.6% (1.1% greater). In regards to playmaking ability both players are very close. Milsap has an AST/TO of 1.35 while Love has a slightly higher rate of 1.38. Love's defense isn't that bad I agree. Millsap does though have practically the same skill set as Love. I am a fan of Kevin Love, but I just worry that the NBA gives out too many Max Contracts, when a combination of role players can make a greater difference (aka the Hawks). This is not to say that I think Atlanta can beat Cleveland. But rather if LeBron, Love or Irving were to get injured I'd be seriously concerned about their chances of making it to the finals. The money difference can really help fill out a team. I guess this is sort of a Moneyball look to it. (Note: in our league I think a moneyball approach can provide greater results in defense of Phoenix) Cleveland will be a titan team when they have a few mid-level exceptions used to fill out the rest of their roster. Gilbert will go into luxury tax to win, something I wish more team owners would be willing to do. Love has taken 392 three point shots this year to Millsap's 216. Millsap didn't even start shooting threes until last year. Love took more threes last year than Millsap has in his career. And look at the career averages (not just one year). Love averages 5 PPG and 4.5 RPG more than Millsap on a career scale.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 11:19:23 GMT -5
20 and 10 guys come and go in the league pretty often. David Lee before this season had averaged 18.7 ppg, 10.3 rpg, and 3 apg (pretty close to 20 and 10) and is now touted as one of the most overpaid players. Granted Kevin Love has a slightly better defense than Lee from the games I've seen, but what's to say a David Lee scenario doesn't happen to him? My biggest qualm with giving Love a max contract is that there are a handful of players who give teams defense and a 20 - 10 for less. Milsap being one that comes to mind, averaging near stats (little less REB but more AST and STL) and is being paid 7.2 million less. That 7.2 million difference could pay for another strong starter, or even a back up if a starter gets injured. After following the NBA's salary cap and salary rules for over 10 years, I've come to the conclusion that they give out max salaries too often. With the upcoming salary cap increasing by a projected 30 million next summer, as well as another huge bump to be expected the season after we will sadly see more max contracts offered. I'm sure when the next lockout occurs they'll raise the maximum salary rather than doing the right thing and raise the league minimum and rookie contracts by a significant amount. Except, no, they can't. Whether Love re-signs or not, the Cavaliers are already over the cap. I somewhat agree on the max salary comment, though I don't think the right thing is to raise the minimum. What they should do is eliminate the individual max altogether. Let teams pay a guy like LeBron $40-50 million a year. Right now, there is an artificial cap on what the best players in the league can earn. All that does is raise the price on the second tier guys, meaning if you miss on one of those guys, you're screwed. That's what happened to the Cavs the first time around (well, that and John Paxson being a freaking moron with picks). If they convince Joe Johnson or Ray Allen to come to Cleveland, then they're golden. Instead, they settled for Larry Hughes... who promptly got hurt and was never the same. Also, on your point about 20-10 seasons... you also have to add in there 4 assists, as Love is a fantastic passer. A quick search on basketball-reference.com (great site, by the way), shows that a 20-10-4 season has happened just 74 times in NBA HISTORY. It's happened once in the last 8 YEARS. That one person? Kevin Love. Here are the other guys that have managed to do it in the last 20 years: Kevin Garnett Chris Webber Charles Barkley So yeah... like Brisbane said, not factually correct.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 11:40:50 GMT -5
Exactly my point. Everyone keeps thinking I'm saying they are EQUAL players when I've mentioned multiple times the word glorified. I get it, he's better. I know that. I'm saying he's not some franchise changing talent that immediately makes your team world's better. Again, if I'm building an NBA real life franchise and I have the option of a combo like Frye and Gorgui Dieng on cheap deals vs Love at max, I'm never taking Love. I mention Dieng as well in that because he could easily replace the rebounds Frye wouldn't produce while also actually protecting the paint on defense, unlike Love's ability to do so. Sent from The Office of the Phoenix Suns General Manager That's nice, but we have evidence that Dieng isn't a great defender. We know Frye is not a good defender. You use those two guys as your starting bigs, and you're going to get scored on... A LOT. With Love, you know you're getting an incredible offensive talent that can not only create for himself, but others as well. You're getting someone who can rebound at a historic rate, and while he may not be a great shotblocker, he is pretty good within defensive schemes. With Dieng and Frye, you run into the issue of needing a world class guards to set them up because you can't just give them the ball and tell them to go to work. And while the money situation would be fine right now, what happens when Dieng comes off his rookie contract? Do you pay him like the Clips did DeAndre, and hope that he develops? If you pay him and he doesn't develop, well, now you're screwed. I also think you saw firsthand this year that he IS a franchise changing talent. Last year's Wolves were a few untimely injuries away from making the playoffs. This years Wolves? Same injuries... worst in the league. While it may not be as simple as Love leaving, he clearly had the biggest impact on that team. This argument is getting kind of silly, and I think we're too often swapping fantasy Love with real life Love. In the fantasy world, Cavs Love is not nearly as valuable as Wolves Love. In the real world? I don't see a difference.
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Post by Mighty Mouse on Apr 24, 2015 16:11:35 GMT -5
I also think you saw firsthand this year that he IS a franchise changing talent. Last year's Wolves were a few untimely injuries away from making the playoffs. This years Wolves? Same injuries... worst in the league. While it may not be as simple as Love leaving, he clearly had the biggest impact on that team. This argument is getting kind of silly, and I think we're too often swapping fantasy Love with real life Love. In the fantasy world, Cavs Love is not nearly as valuable as Wolves Love. In the real world? I don't see a difference. My point was basically that there are a lot of players who could do for the Cavs what Love does. His role in Cleveland minimizes a lot of his talents. Channing Frye might not be the perfect comparison, but it isn't far off. Chris Bosh. Ryan Anderson. Aging Dirk. Love has a dynamic, diverse, unique skill set. His full arsenal was on display in Minnesota, his numbers were crazy, and he had pretty much complete freedom to do whatever he wanted (including stealing rebounds from teammates). Next to LeBron and Kyrie he is just another stretch four, albeit a very good one. I'll end by saying I don't like Kevin Love. So there is that. Oh, and Cleveland never should have traded Wiggins for him.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 16:21:06 GMT -5
I also think you saw firsthand this year that he IS a franchise changing talent. Last year's Wolves were a few untimely injuries away from making the playoffs. This years Wolves? Same injuries... worst in the league. While it may not be as simple as Love leaving, he clearly had the biggest impact on that team. This argument is getting kind of silly, and I think we're too often swapping fantasy Love with real life Love. In the fantasy world, Cavs Love is not nearly as valuable as Wolves Love. In the real world? I don't see a difference. My point was basically that there are a lot of players who could do for the Cavs what Love does. His role in Cleveland minimizes a lot of his talents. Channing Frye might not be the perfect comparison, but it isn't far off. Chris Bosh. Ryan Anderson. Aging Dirk. Love has a dynamic, diverse, unique skill set. His full arsenal was on display in Minnesota, his numbers were crazy, and he had pretty much complete freedom to do whatever he wanted (including stealing rebounds from teammates). Next to LeBron and Kyrie he is just another stretch four, albeit a very good one. I'll end by saying I don't like Kevin Love. So there is that. Oh, and Cleveland never should have traded Wiggins for him.If the Cavs don't include Wiggins, they don't get Love. If they don't get Love, they don't have a shot at a championship. Simple as that. I didn't like the deal at first either, but when you factor in the fact that LeBron has, maybe, 3-4 good years left, you can't waste those years by waiting for Wiggins.
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Post by Mighty Mouse on Apr 24, 2015 17:05:01 GMT -5
My point was basically that there are a lot of players who could do for the Cavs what Love does. His role in Cleveland minimizes a lot of his talents. Channing Frye might not be the perfect comparison, but it isn't far off. Chris Bosh. Ryan Anderson. Aging Dirk. Love has a dynamic, diverse, unique skill set. His full arsenal was on display in Minnesota, his numbers were crazy, and he had pretty much complete freedom to do whatever he wanted (including stealing rebounds from teammates). Next to LeBron and Kyrie he is just another stretch four, albeit a very good one. I'll end by saying I don't like Kevin Love. So there is that. Oh, and Cleveland never should have traded Wiggins for him.If the Cavs don't include Wiggins, they don't get Love. If they don't get Love, they don't have a shot at a championship. Simple as that. I didn't like the deal at first either, but when you factor in the fact that LeBron has, maybe, 3-4 good years left, you can't waste those years by waiting for Wiggins. 1) That is what I meant. Cavs should have kept Wiggins instead of pursuing Love. 2) I think the Cavs would still be the favorite to come out of the East this year with Wiggins instead of Love. 3) Once you're in the Finals, you've got a shot. 4) LeBron has at least 5 years of all-nba basketball left in him, possibly more. 5) The notion that Cleveland would have to wait 3-4 years to compete while Wiggins matures is just silly. They’re in the East! The conference where teams with losing records get in the playoffs! They’d be competing from day one and only getting stronger each year. The Cavs finished 7 games behind Atlanta, 3 games ahead of Chicago, and 4 games ahead of Toronto. I have a hard time imagining a different seed with Wiggins in place of Love. 6) Trading for Love was very short sided. There is no guarantee of a championship this year. There is no guarantee Love sticks around after this year. With Wiggins and Kyrie, there IS a guarantee that Cleveland would have a solid foundation for the next decade. 7) Five years from now, you Cleveland fans are going to probably have a couple of championships under your belt and you’ll still be saying to yourselves “Dang, we could have had ANDREW WIGGINS???”
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 17:48:58 GMT -5
1. You're entitled to your opinion, and while I disagree, I will defend to the death your right to have it.
2. I disagree. This team would have ZERO spacing with Wiggins instead of Love. You're looking at a lineup of Kyrie-Wiggins-LeBron-Thompson-Varejao (Mozgov?). Yikes.
3. True. I don't see what this has to do with Wiggins/Love
4. It's far too dangerous to assume this. You know what they say about assuming things. It's especially dangerous to assume that you know how long that window will be open. It can slam shut on you before you know it (you're a Blazers fan, you know this better than anyone).
5. The problem with this assumption is it ignores how different the makeup of the team is with Wiggins instead of Love. Without trading for Love, the team probably doesn't trade for Shumpert and Smith. I think they would have moved Dion because that guy was a cancer, but who knows what they would have gotten for him. They keep Bennett, who becomes completely worthless because he doesn't get minutes/sucks. They probably still try to trade for Timo, but there's no guarantee that they get him. It's not as simple as replacing Wiggins with Love and going from there.
6. See point #4. Of course there is no guarantee of a title this year. There's no "guarantee" Love sticks around, though those in the know have stated, unequivocally, that Love is here for the rest of Bron's career (Love has stated his commitment to the Cavs as well. Which is another thing that bugs the crap out of me. At least when the media speculated about LeBron leaving, it was because he refused to publicly commit to the team. Love, on the other hand, has publicly committed time and time again, yet all the media wants to talk about is, "Love doesn't look like he's having fun. He's going to LA!" The "media" is a fucking joke). That said, with LeBron in tow, the Cavs now have a window, and as we've learned, when you have a window, you do everything you can to maximize your chances in that window. By keeping Wiggins and moving forward with a flawed frontcourt, you aren't maximizing your window. You're also pinning A LOT to the idea that Wiggins stays healthy and maxes out his potential. What if, god forbid, he gets seriously injured? What if he just doesn't live up to his potential? Again, its a very dangerous assumption to say Wiggins will pan out.
7. If the Cavs win a title or two in the next 5 years, there won't be a fan in Cleveland that gives two shits about Wiggins. I can guarantee you that. You win one championship, and you're golden. You think Pistons fans spent the years after winning the 04 title complaining that they didn't draft Melo or Wade over Darko? Hell no. They won a title and went to 6 straight conference finals.
We can go back and forth on this, but it's really a matter of opinion, so no one's really wrong one this. You're of the opinion that you don't trade a guy like Wiggins because it could hurt the future. I'm of the opinion that you do everything you can to maximize your window. You say you can never guarantee a title. I say you can never guarantee the future. If the Cavs win a championship or two, and Wiggins doesn't work out, you're not wrong and I'm not right. If the Cavs fail to win a title, and Wiggins becomes a hall of fame player, I'm not wrong and you're not right.
I do find your stance ironic, though, given your rooting interests. Honestly, I find this more interesting than I do our little back and forth.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 17:49:43 GMT -5
I have Wiggins in Miege's league (the other league the I won).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 12:40:46 GMT -5
Welp, Kevin Love likely out for the playoffs after Olynyk pulled a D-Wade and ripped his arm out of socket. Looks like Hawks-Bulls ECF.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 13:05:06 GMT -5
I felt the Hawks chances of a championship run went out the window with Sefolosha (one of the best perimeter defenders imo) got hurt.
The Love injury made things a lot more interesting in the East. I wonder if Thompson can produce more points in his place especially since he's on his contract year.
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Post by Mighty Mouse on Apr 26, 2015 13:27:52 GMT -5
We're about to find out if Love really is critical to the Cavs' chances at a title. This is an interesting development in the Love/Wiggins debate. I still think the smart money is on the Cavs in the East. We shall see.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 13:59:58 GMT -5
We're about to find out if Love really is critical to the Cavs' chances at a title. This is an interesting development in the Love/Wiggins debate. I still think the smart money is on the Cavs in the East. We shall see. Not really. The Heat managed to make it to the finals with Bosh missing a lot of the postseason in 2012. Doesn't mean Bosh wasn't any less crucial to their success. However, you are going to see things get really bad for the Cavs on offense. They can't space the floor with Thompson, and Jones can't guard anyone. Now with JR Smith likely to be suspended multiple games, I'm giving Cleveland almost no chance to beat Chicago.
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