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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 12:04:37 GMT -5
Being a huge Cavs fan and a fan of Wiggins, the move to trade him was the right move.
You don't move Wiggins and you might not get Shump and JR. Cavs may have stuck with Dion and been more patient with a guy like Wiggins.
You don't move Wiggins and you don't get a guy who averages 17-10, yet is still considered to be having a bad year. THAT BLOWS MY MIND.
I watched all but maybe 4 or 5 Cavs games this year and I can tell you that there were nights where K Love won the game for them. Tristan wasn't doing this all season -- but Love was consistent. It's not just about numbers with Love, but also what he can bring to your team. Floor spacing and opening up the floor for a great driving PG and one of the best drive and kick passers in the game in LBJ.
The efficiency stats are irrelevant. You're talking two different brands of basketball when comparing the regular and post season.
Had the Cavs never traded Wiggins for Love, they wouldn't have made it out of the East. I say that because I don't think they would have made the corresponding lives they did (Shump and JR in particular).
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Post by Mighty Mouse on May 29, 2015 12:48:04 GMT -5
Being a huge Cavs fan and a fan of Wiggins, the move to trade him was the right move. You don't move Wiggins and you might not get Shump and JR. Cavs may have stuck with Dion and been more patient with a guy like Wiggins. You don't move Wiggins and you don't get a guy who averages 17-10, yet is still considered to be having a bad year. THAT BLOWS MY MIND. I watched all but maybe 4 or 5 Cavs games this year and I can tell you that there were nights where K Love won the game for them. Tristan wasn't doing this all season -- but Love was consistent. It's not just about numbers with Love, but also what he can bring to your team. Floor spacing and opening up the floor for a great driving PG and one of the best drive and kick passers in the game in LBJ. The efficiency stats are irrelevant. You're talking two different brands of basketball when comparing the regular and post season. Had the Cavs never traded Wiggins for Love, they wouldn't have made it out of the East. I say that because I don't think they would have made the corresponding lives they did (Shump and JR in particular). You're going to have to explain what the Wiggins trade has to do with the Shumpert/Smith trade. I do not understand how they are at all related.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 15:04:23 GMT -5
We were going to trade J.R. either way, the guy a headcase with a contract that interferes with our free agency plans. One season sign a bunch of role players, the other season sign a star player and a role player or two. Given that we've traded him and Shumpert away we now have near 30 million for both free agencies so long as we don't exceed the cap space with a multiple year deal. We originally almost traded J.R. to Indiana for Copeland, however I believe they wanted us to give up a future pick. While I wasn't the biggest fan of giving up Shumpert, it was clear his style of play just wasn't meshing with what our next few years was going to look like. Given he's going to ask for a contract that could potentially be 7 or more million a year it would have interfered harshly. J.R. and Shumpert are great players don't get me wrong, but they had a tendency of being streaky for us. A lot of the media shit talks the Knicks in that deal but when you compare when the Knicks got rid of Jared Jefferies' contract we had to give up two 1st round picks as well as the recently drafted Jordan Hill, whereas with this deal we didn't give up any picks, and actually got a second round pick in return. It was a great gamble for Cleveland to have gotten them.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 21:16:32 GMT -5
Being a huge Cavs fan and a fan of Wiggins, the move to trade him was the right move. You don't move Wiggins and you might not get Shump and JR. Cavs may have stuck with Dion and been more patient with a guy like Wiggins. You don't move Wiggins and you don't get a guy who averages 17-10, yet is still considered to be having a bad year. THAT BLOWS MY MIND. I watched all but maybe 4 or 5 Cavs games this year and I can tell you that there were nights where K Love won the game for them. Tristan wasn't doing this all season -- but Love was consistent. It's not just about numbers with Love, but also what he can bring to your team. Floor spacing and opening up the floor for a great driving PG and one of the best drive and kick passers in the game in LBJ. The efficiency stats are irrelevant. You're talking two different brands of basketball when comparing the regular and post season. Had the Cavs never traded Wiggins for Love, they wouldn't have made it out of the East. I say that because I don't think they would have made the corresponding lives they did (Shump and JR in particular). You're going to have to explain what the Wiggins trade has to do with the Shumpert/Smith trade. I do not understand how they are at all related. Ad you're Champion, I'm saying that if the Cavs keep Wiggins, they're not going to trade for two more wings. Maybe you get JR (maybe), but I cannot imagine bringing in Shumpert too. My whole point is that if they kept Wiggins, there may not have been a plethora of moves after the facts. Anthony Bennett would have been coming off the bench too. It's the chaos theory. The whole thing is chaos. It's entirely unpredictable and nonlinear. In short, it's the butterfly effect. The butterfly flaps its wings in Hong Kong and you get rain instead of sunshine in Central Park. No one could have predicted that the Cavs would have made the trades they did. Just as we cannot predict what would have happened had the Cavs kept Wiggins. The two equations are nonlinear and unpredictable. I just don't think it's fair to say that the Cavs could be in the same spot had they kept Wiggins.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 22:45:44 GMT -5
Meige is probably going to blast me for this, but as a responsible NBA fan I must point it out. *Disclaimer: small sample size*. The Offensive rating with Kevin Love throughout the regular season was 110.4 and their defensive rating was 106.6. In the 10 games they haven't had him in the playoffs? 111.4/103. This would lead one to believe they are better without Kevin Love. While I don't necessarily think that is true, the main point I take out of this is that Kevin Love is not essential to them winning a title. Therefore, there was potential to have similar success with Andrew Wiggins. On the other hand, the Thunder are a perfect example of a team thinking they're set up for multiple finals appearances/titles. They had their future set. Next thing you know, they trade Harden, injuries, bad signings happen and what do they have to show for it? 1 non-competitive finals appearance. If the Cavs think they have a short window, I don't blame them for sacrificing the future. Bird in the hand sort of thing. I don't think I personally would have done it, but I don't blame them for trying. Remember when most people were perplexed as to why the Warriors wouldn't trade Klay and David Lee for Love? Funny, how it all plays out. Do you have the numbers with Love from January 19 on? Anything before they made the mid-season trades/LeBron's hiatus is kind of pointless at this point. Two completely different teams. What were the numbers with Love in the Boston series, and how do they compare to the last two? Also, as you said yourself, it's an extremely small sample size, and its not really indicative of anything sustainable long-term. What were the numbers with Tristan in the regular season?
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Post by NAUHurdler on May 31, 2015 16:58:45 GMT -5
What do you know, Kevin Love took some time to think about things and now no longer believes Kelly hurt him on purpose and has moved on. Hopefully his fans realize this truth eventually as well so they can stop feeling as if Kelly motherfucking Olynk is the dirtiest player in the NBA. Haha I'm exaggerating on purpose as those fans sure we're adamant about the split second decision in which Kelly thought, "Yeah let's totally dislocate his shoulder, NOW!" In related news, but you're happy to hear he sounds set on coming back next year! Sent from The Office of the Phoenix Suns General Manager
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 17:41:09 GMT -5
What do you know, Kevin Love took some time to think about things and now no longer believes Kelly hurt him on purpose and has moved on. Hopefully his fans realize this truth eventually as well so they can stop feeling as if Kelly motherfucking Olynk is the dirtiest player in the NBA. Haha I'm exaggerating on purpose as those fans sure we're adamant about the split second decision in which Kelly thought, "Yeah let's totally dislocate his shoulder, NOW!" In related news, but you're happy to hear he sounds set on coming back next year! Sent from The Office of the Phoenix Suns General Manager The argument was never "did Olynk intentionally mean to dislocate Love's shoulder?"... The argument was did Olynk maliciously yank on Love's arm as part of that dirty play. Yes, yes he did. And Love has been saying all year he's coming back. It's the media who purports bullshit. Two hours after Love says he intends on staying in Cleveland, Marc Berman of the NY Post writes an article about how Love may not be back. I mean, what?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 7:57:44 GMT -5
New York doesn't really have any good writers at the moment. Most of it is just speculation. Berman and Isola are not very trust worthy sources in my experience. We had Alan Hahn a few years ago who worked for Newsday, but he's now a pre/post game analyst for MSG along with Wally Szczerbiak. I would take both Berman and Isola's articles with a grain of salt.
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Post by Roar GM (Josh) on Jun 1, 2015 8:34:05 GMT -5
Meige is probably going to blast me for this, but as a responsible NBA fan I must point it out. *Disclaimer: small sample size*. The Offensive rating with Kevin Love throughout the regular season was 110.4 and their defensive rating was 106.6. In the 10 games they haven't had him in the playoffs? 111.4/103. This would lead one to believe they are better without Kevin Love. While I don't necessarily think that is true, the main point I take out of this is that Kevin Love is not essential to them winning a title. Therefore, there was potential to have similar success with Andrew Wiggins. On the other hand, the Thunder are a perfect example of a team thinking they're set up for multiple finals appearances/titles. They had their future set. Next thing you know, they trade Harden, injuries, bad signings happen and what do they have to show for it? 1 non-competitive finals appearance. If the Cavs think they have a short window, I don't blame them for sacrificing the future. Bird in the hand sort of thing. I don't think I personally would have done it, but I don't blame them for trying. Remember when most people were perplexed as to why the Warriors wouldn't trade Klay and David Lee for Love? Funny, how it all plays out. Do you have the numbers with Love from January 19 on? Anything before they made the mid-season trades/LeBron's hiatus is kind of pointless at this point. Two completely different teams. What were the numbers with Love in the Boston series, and how do they compare to the last two? Also, as you said yourself, it's an extremely small sample size, and its not really indicative of anything sustainable long-term. What were the numbers with Tristan in the regular season? After January 19- 113.2/103.9- Both were improved over the total regular season. Offense was 1.8 points better and defense was .9 points worse with Love. (Good point of Reference: 2011-2012 Heat with CB4- 108.9. Without-99.7. That's the impact I expect a top 15 player to have) Boston Series (with Love)- 113.6/102.2 Bulls Series- 110.6/106 Hawks Series- 113/98.9 This makes sense. I think everyone can agree the Bulls were the best team they played. Not sure waht you mean about Tristan, but regular season Tristan=/ playoff Tristan
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 18:07:30 GMT -5
Do you have the numbers with Love from January 19 on? Anything before they made the mid-season trades/LeBron's hiatus is kind of pointless at this point. Two completely different teams. What were the numbers with Love in the Boston series, and how do they compare to the last two? Also, as you said yourself, it's an extremely small sample size, and its not really indicative of anything sustainable long-term. What were the numbers with Tristan in the regular season? After January 19- 113.2/103.9- Both were improved over the total regular season. Offense was 1.8 points better and defense was .9 points worse with Love. (Good point of Reference: 2011-2012 Heat with CB4- 108.9. Without-99.7. That's the impact I expect a top 15 player to have) Boston Series (with Love)- 113.6/102.2 Bulls Series- 110.6/106 Hawks Series- 113/98.9 This makes sense. I think everyone can agree the Bulls were the best team they played. Not sure waht you mean about Tristan, but regular season Tristan=/ playoff TristanBut this matters significantly. We've seen this Tristan for 9 games. That's such a small sample size that it really doesn't mean anything. Also, based on your Love v. Bosh numbers, they were roughly the same.
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Post by Roar GM (Josh) on Jun 2, 2015 7:37:36 GMT -5
After January 19- 113.2/103.9- Both were improved over the total regular season. Offense was 1.8 points better and defense was .9 points worse with Love. (Good point of Reference: 2011-2012 Heat with CB4- 108.9. Without-99.7. That's the impact I expect a top 15 player to have) Boston Series (with Love)- 113.6/102.2 Bulls Series- 110.6/106 Hawks Series- 113/98.9 This makes sense. I think everyone can agree the Bulls were the best team they played. Not sure waht you mean about Tristan, but regular season Tristan=/ playoff TristanBut this matters significantly. We've seen this Tristan for 9 games. That's such a small sample size that it really doesn't mean anything. Also, based on your Love v. Bosh numbers, they were roughly the same. Uh, no. Sorry if i wasnt clear but that was offensive only. They were 9.2 points worse per 100 possessions without him than with him. This would be going from the 7th best offense to the 29th best offense this year. The cavs were only 1.8 points per 100 worse without love. Best offense to 3rd best offense. That's astronomical
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 20:13:05 GMT -5
You changed up the format of your numbers and it has become very confusing. In your original post, you were listing offense/defense. I'm not sure what you turned it in to.
Regardless, these numbers are fun to look at, but one has to wonder where versatility comes in to play. Its great that there hasn't been a drop-off, but its also true that the Cavs haven't really faced a team that could exploit the offensively challenged bigs. Not to mention LeBron's field goal percentage dropped off a cliff when Love went down. How much of that is the lack of spacing?
Although, this really comes back to Wiggins and the idea that the Cavs would be in the same place with him. I disagree. If Wiggins is playing, who's he playing in front of? Is he playing in front of Shump? Well, now you just replaced an elite perimeter defender with a bad one. If he playing in front of JR? That's replacing your best shooter with a bad one. Honestly, I don't think Wiggins plays at the end of games anyway, with the way the Cavs like to finish.
ADDED: I see what you did with the numbers. As for your comments on Bosh, who were the 2011 Heat bringing when he went to the bench? Exactly. I don't see why the Cavs are being lambasted for having a good backup.
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Post by Roar GM (Josh) on Jun 3, 2015 7:52:35 GMT -5
Question for Cavs fans- Which scenario is worse for your chances to keep Kevin Love, Cavs win finals or lose finals?
Question for Blazers fans- IF Kevin Love decides to leave, and Portland was a desired destination (ya know, going back to where he was born), would you rather have him than LA?
Heard both of these questions on a pod and had genuine curiosity,
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 11:30:31 GMT -5
Question for Cavs fans- Which scenario is worse for your chances to keep Kevin Love, Cavs win finals or lose finals? Question for Blazers fans- IF Kevin Love decides to leave, and Portland was a desired destination (ya know, going back to where he was born), would you rather have him than LA? Heard both of these questions on a pod and had genuine curiosity, I think the question to Kevin Love has already been answered, by Kevin Love. He's coming back. I don't think the outcome of the Finals makes a difference since he'll be back either way. Cavs fans want the championship. Bad. Very bad. Kevin Love is an integral part to this Cavs team. These guys haven't played at this level all year. They've really stepped up since Love's arm was brutally yanked from its socket against Boston. Not saying you think this way, but anyone who says this team is better off without Love is ignorant and clearly doesn't watch the Cavs.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 11:34:16 GMT -5
The Cavs are going to be in a worse luxury tax situation than the Nets were when they resign Thompson, Love, Shumpert, J.R. and next year Mozgov.
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