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Post by moltreszwarriors (Shock GM) on Jul 19, 2014 3:37:57 GMT -5
I'm aware that Oladipo and Waiters were in separate drafts. I just meant that I didn't think Waiters was such an unmovable talent at the position that you couldn't draft Oladipo and then perhaps trade Waiters. Or you can just keep bringing him off the bench as a scorer in the Jamal Crawford mold, something they did for chunks of last season anyway.
As for the three wins in 4 years, in general, I'd say that a combination of jealousy from other fans and the fact that it probably points to the fact that the lottery needs altering, though I suppose it is karmically correct that the Cavs won instead of some team that tanked egregiously.
It's just kind of statistically mind-boggling that Cleveland has had this lottery. Not only have they won three lotteries in the last four years, they have gotten two franchise altering talents in the last two years with those picks. That's about as likely as, well, winning the lottery.
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Post by NAUHurdler on Jul 19, 2014 3:47:00 GMT -5
In regards to the Cavs backlash for winning so many lotteries including LeBron twice, I would say it's because it seems that luck of the lottery balls sure has given them every chance to win and it's been squandered up to this point. Also, not to get all conspiracy theory on you, but is it not fitting that it's all worked out this way? First they nab their hometown hero LeBron. Then he leaves after no championships which causes anarchy in Cleveland only for the franchise to then win the lottery 3 more times before he returns. It just seems too much like a story book written behind the scenes of the NBA. Almost too good to be true. Also, one thing I'm tired of hearing is how the poor city of Cleveland has no championships and such bad luck. Join the club. Haha
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Post by Mighty Mouse on Jul 19, 2014 14:55:52 GMT -5
To fans of other teams, especially ones that are constantly in the lottery (Philly, Sacramento, Milwaukee, etc) it sure looks like the Cavs are getting one hell of a reward for sucking. People aren't pissed that the Cavs got three #1 picks in four years, they're pissed that anyone got three #1 picks in four years. And then when you see what they've done with that team it looks like a lot of good fortune gone to waste. Or it did until last week when they signed LeBron.
And if you're a Houston or Miami or Clippers fan of a franchise that has done pretty much everything right for multiple years to build a contender and clear enough cap space to sign LeBron and it looks like its all lined up perfectly . . . then you miss out because he's "a Cleveland guy". Well ain't that some shit. LeBron loves Cleveland. And nothing anyone can do can compete with that.
When the best basketball player chooses to play for your team for no other reason then he likes living in his old neighborhood. Thats pretty lucky.
For the record, I"m happy he is in Cleveland. Its a good story, the fans deserve it. He was never in a million years going to go to Portland, so I'm glad he stayed in the Eastern Conference. I just don't want to see them trade Wiggins foer Love because its a horribly short sighted move that will probably not work out and is going to set their team back in the long run. Wiggins/LeBron could be a historically great duo on the Pippen/Jordan level. Why you'd voluntarily mess with that is beyond me. But its just so Cleveland that I'm resigned to the fact that it will probably happen, and I'm just going to sit here and shake my head.
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Post by moltreszwarriors (Shock GM) on Jul 19, 2014 15:31:00 GMT -5
From what I can tell, they are doing this because Lebron wants them to. So that really doesn't give them too much of a choice if you look at it from the I signed a very short contract perspective.
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Post by Mighty Mouse on Jul 19, 2014 18:25:52 GMT -5
From what I can tell, they are doing this because Lebron wants them to. So that really doesn't give them too much of a choice if you look at it from the I signed a very short contract perspective. What LeBron wants, LeBron gets, right? Seems like a terrible way to run a team. LeBron knew their roster when he signed, he's under contract for two years, don't let him screw with the future of the franchise. You'd think if any team understood that, it would be the Cavs. SMH.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 11:42:31 GMT -5
To fans of other teams, especially ones that are constantly in the lottery (Philly, Sacramento, Milwaukee, etc) it sure looks like the Cavs are getting one hell of a reward for sucking. People aren't pissed that the Cavs got three #1 picks in four years, they're pissed that anyone got three #1 picks in four years. And then when you see what they've done with that team it looks like a lot of good fortune gone to waste. Or it did until last week when they signed LeBron. And if you're a Houston or Miami or Clippers fan of a franchise that has done pretty much everything right for multiple years to build a contender and clear enough cap space to sign LeBron and it looks like its all lined up perfectly . . . then you miss out because he's "a Cleveland guy". Well ain't that some shit. LeBron loves Cleveland. And nothing anyone can do can compete with that. When the best basketball player chooses to play for your team for no other reason then he likes living in his old neighborhood. Thats pretty lucky. For the record, I"m happy he is in Cleveland. Its a good story, the fans deserve it. He was never in a million years going to go to Portland, so I'm glad he stayed in the Eastern Conference. I just don't want to see them trade Wiggins foer Love because its a horribly short sighted move that will probably not work out and is going to set their team back in the long run. Wiggins/LeBron could be a historically great duo on the Pippen/Jordan level. Why you'd voluntarily mess with that is beyond me. But its just so Cleveland that I'm resigned to the fact that it will probably happen, and I'm just going to sit here and shake my head. The Clippers haven't been doing everything right. They were the laughingstock of the league until they landed Blake Griffin. Even after doing that, they still traded away their #1 pick, unprotected, in 2011. They landed Chris Paul because Stern vetoed that Lakers deal (which I still think was wrong). Without that Stern veto, where are the Clippers...? Houston... well, Houston is a fun one. The narrative surrounding Morey and that front office really doesn't match what has actually happened there. Let go of Jeremy Lin when he was on his rookie deal, only to get rid of both Lowry and Dragic to bring back Lin at well above market value. Snaked Omer Asik, then got rid of him when they signed Dwight. Traded away Lin and a 1st to make room for Bosh, without an assurance that Bosh was going there. Let Chandler Parsons out of his deal early, when they didn't have to, only to let him go for nothing and sign contract year Ariza (who, by the way, he signed and gave up on just a year into the signing). Houston is the equivalent of the guy playing Black Jack who just can't help himself. "Sir, you're at 19." "I don't care, HIT ME!" Sometimes they get a 2 and hit 21, like with Harden and Howard. More often than not, they go bust. Miami wasted two years of Dwyane Wade's prime on the gamble that they'd be able to land James and Bosh in 2010. It worked, but they never seem to get an flak for those two years. Then after landing those three, they refused to pour money into keeping it going, instead amnestying Mike Miller and signing Beasley and Oden, two guys that were long shots to work out. Had they been willing to keep Miller and go slightly into the luxury tax, maybe LeBron doesn't leave. That seemed to be a real sticking point with LeBron. There are all these narratives out there about who has a good front office and who has a bad one, and most of them are bogus.
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Post by NAUHurdler on Jul 21, 2014 11:53:06 GMT -5
I think the moral of this is that each and every front office makes their mistakes. It's just impossible to nail every deal and draft pick.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using proboards
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 12:30:50 GMT -5
Yeah, it's just that Cleveland has had a shitload of luck lately and people get jealous
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Post by moltreszwarriors (Shock GM) on Jul 21, 2014 20:51:05 GMT -5
Houston... well, Houston is a fun one. The narrative surrounding Morey and that front office really doesn't match what has actually happened there. Let go of Jeremy Lin when he was on his rookie deal, only to get rid of both Lowry and Dragic to bring back Lin at well above market value. Snaked Omer Asik, then got rid of him when they signed Dwight. Traded away Lin and a 1st to make room for Bosh, without an assurance that Bosh was going there. Let Chandler Parsons out of his deal early, when they didn't have to, only to let him go for nothing and sign contract year Ariza (who, by the way, he signed and gave up on just a year into the signing). Houston is the equivalent of the guy playing Black Jack who just can't help himself. "Sir, you're at 19." "I don't care, HIT ME!" Sometimes they get a 2 and hit 21, like with Harden and Howard. More often than not, they go bust. There are all these narratives out there about who has a good front office and who has a bad one, and most of them are bogus. Well let me just defend my main man, Daryl Morey. Jeremy Lin's value was much lower when he was first waived. No one knew that he had any talent. The Warriors waived him as well. And let's not forget the business benefits that Houston got from signing Lin. Plus, let's not forgot that Morey signed Patrick Beverley for many years and practically nothing. No one understood that at the time. The pick they got from trading Lowry was used in the Harden deal. They wanted to keep Asik, but he demanded a trade, and they got a good pick for him (is New Orleans really making the playoffs in the West next year? I think not). The Lin trade obviously didn't work out, but I think that the Laker offer to trade for him expired (not a very good justification, God that was a pretty big screw-up). As for the letting Parsons out this year, I think that was part of the deal they had with his agent, who is also Dwight's agent. If that was the part of the cost of getting Dwight, I'll take it. I was surprised they didn't match, though. I hope to maybe see him back in Houston one day for a more reasonable price, though I'm not holding my breath. Plus, the Ariza Parsons swap isn't much of a downgrade, especially since it helps their perimeter defense, an especially important need given Harden's complete lack of effort on defense (I don't see why some coach just can't make him try). Letting Parsons go will only come back to bite Houston if he turns into a star, something rather unlikely to happen. And as a fan, I appreciate my team always swinging for the fences, and it's worked out to the tune of two franchise-altering stars (even if only one of them plays defense). I may be biased, but I regard the Houston front office as the smartest (though not necessarily the best) in all of basketball.
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Post by Mighty Mouse on Jul 22, 2014 1:12:59 GMT -5
The Clippers haven't been doing everything right. They were the laughingstock of the league until they landed Blake Griffin. Even after doing that, they still traded away their #1 pick, unprotected, in 2011. They landed Chris Paul because Stern vetoed that Lakers deal (which I still think was wrong). Without that Stern veto, where are the Clippers...? Houston... well, Houston is a fun one. The narrative surrounding Morey and that front office really doesn't match what has actually happened there. Let go of Jeremy Lin when he was on his rookie deal, only to get rid of both Lowry and Dragic to bring back Lin at well above market value. Snaked Omer Asik, then got rid of him when they signed Dwight. Traded away Lin and a 1st to make room for Bosh, without an assurance that Bosh was going there. Let Chandler Parsons out of his deal early, when they didn't have to, only to let him go for nothing and sign contract year Ariza (who, by the way, he signed and gave up on just a year into the signing). Houston is the equivalent of the guy playing Black Jack who just can't help himself. "Sir, you're at 19." "I don't care, HIT ME!" Sometimes they get a 2 and hit 21, like with Harden and Howard. More often than not, they go bust. Miami wasted two years of Dwyane Wade's prime on the gamble that they'd be able to land James and Bosh in 2010. It worked, but they never seem to get an flak for those two years. Then after landing those three, they refused to pour money into keeping it going, instead amnestying Mike Miller and signing Beasley and Oden, two guys that were long shots to work out. Had they been willing to keep Miller and go slightly into the luxury tax, maybe LeBron doesn't leave. That seemed to be a real sticking point with LeBron. There are all these narratives out there about who has a good front office and who has a bad one, and most of them are bogus. All I know is that Miami spent the last four years in the Finals, winning two championships. The Clippers spend the last four years building a top-5 team. 4 years ago Houston was in the playoffs with Yao Ming and Ron Artest and have completely revamped their roster to build a team that won just as many games as Miami this past season and was back in the playoffs with home court advantage. Cleveland hasn't done shit for four years, outside of land some crazy ping pong ball luck. Look who landed LeBron. Those other three teams have made moves to put themselves in a position compete for a championship, while Cleveland pouted for a few seasons, got a historically insane run of top draft picks, and signed LeBron. I'm happy for them, but I'm far from impressed by their front office.
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Post by Mighty Mouse on Jul 22, 2014 1:19:45 GMT -5
Houston... well, Houston is a fun one. The narrative surrounding Morey and that front office really doesn't match what has actually happened there. Let go of Jeremy Lin when he was on his rookie deal, only to get rid of both Lowry and Dragic to bring back Lin at well above market value. Snaked Omer Asik, then got rid of him when they signed Dwight. Traded away Lin and a 1st to make room for Bosh, without an assurance that Bosh was going there. Let Chandler Parsons out of his deal early, when they didn't have to, only to let him go for nothing and sign contract year Ariza (who, by the way, he signed and gave up on just a year into the signing). Houston is the equivalent of the guy playing Black Jack who just can't help himself. "Sir, you're at 19." "I don't care, HIT ME!" Sometimes they get a 2 and hit 21, like with Harden and Howard. More often than not, they go bust. There are all these narratives out there about who has a good front office and who has a bad one, and most of them are bogus. Well let me just defend my main man, Daryl Morey. Jeremy Lin's value was much lower when he was first waived. No one knew that he had any talent. The Warriors waived him as well. And let's not forget the business benefits that Houston got from signing Lin. Plus, let's not forgot that Morey signed Patrick Beverley for many years and practically nothing. No one understood that at the time. The pick they got from trading Lowry was used in the Harden deal. They wanted to keep Asik, but he demanded a trade, and they got a good pick for him (is New Orleans really making the playoffs in the West next year? I think not). The Lin trade obviously didn't work out, but I think that the Laker offer to trade for him expired (not a very good justification, God that was a pretty big screw-up). As for the letting Parsons out this year, I think that was part of the deal they had with his agent, who is also Dwight's agent. If that was the part of the cost of getting Dwight, I'll take it. I was surprised they didn't match, though. I hope to maybe see him back in Houston one day for a more reasonable price, though I'm not holding my breath. Plus, the Ariza Parsons swap isn't much of a downgrade, especially since it helps their perimeter defense, an especially important need given Harden's complete lack of effort on defense (I don't see why some coach just can't make him try). Letting Parsons go will only come back to bite Houston if he turns into a star, something rather unlikely to happen. And as a fan, I appreciate my team always swinging for the fences, and it's worked out to the tune of two franchise-altering stars (even if only one of them plays defense). I may be biased, but I regard the Houston front office as the smartest (though not necessarily the best) in all of basketball. I'm with Miege on this one. While I respect Houston for swinging for the fences and proactively trying to build a winner, they have the most overrated front office in the league. The "Daryl Morey is a genius" is a myth that needs to die. Their off season this year was a complete and utter disaster and an absolute joy to watch. And if you couldn't tell by that first round exit, "franchise altering stars" does not a team make.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 3:15:53 GMT -5
Let's put Houston on the middle road; while they might not have that good of a front office, they did have a plan to turn things around very quickly which worked. I think they have a very strong team now, and even though they had a 1st round exit, any team in the west could have exitted the 1st round. This offseason was indeed bad though, so I say they just have a fairly good front office.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 15:40:20 GMT -5
Let's put Houston on the middle road; while they might not have that good of a front office, they did have a plan to turn things around very quickly which worked. I think they have a very strong team now, and even though they had a 1st round exit, any team in the west could have exitted the 1st round. This offseason was indeed bad though, so I say they just have a fairly good front office. Here's Houston's win totals since 06-07: 06-07: 52 07-08: 55 08-09: 53 09-10: 42 10-11: 43 11-12: 34 (lockout year, 34-32) 12-13: 45 13-14: 54 Houston never bottomed out, so define "quickly."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 15:41:35 GMT -5
In any event, this thread spiraled out of control. Looks like the Cavs landed Love, just a matter of finding out who is included.
I'm praying they didn't trade Wiggins, but I've resigned myself to the fact that they have. I'm going to be depressed (which is ridiculous when you consider the team landed LeBron and Love in the same offseason).
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Post by Mighty Mouse on Jul 22, 2014 16:31:29 GMT -5
Let's put Houston on the middle road; while they might not have that good of a front office, they did have a plan to turn things around very quickly which worked. I think they have a very strong team now, and even though they had a 1st round exit, any team in the west could have exitted the 1st round. This offseason was indeed bad though, so I say they just have a fairly good front office. Here's Houston's win totals since 06-07: 06-07: 52 07-08: 55 08-09: 53 09-10: 42 10-11: 43 11-12: 34 (lockout year, 34-32) 12-13: 45 13-14: 54 Houston never bottomed out, so define "quickly." I think thats the point. They never bottomed out. The went very seamlessly from Tracy McGrady/Yao Ming to Yao/Artest/Lowry to Howard/Harden/Parsons. Its impressive. They went from one 55 win team to a completely different one in a few years without bottoming out and playing the lottery game. That is hard to do in the NBA. And A LOT more impressive than collecting #1 picks through lucky ping pong ball bounces. As for Kevin Love going to Cleveland. Ugh. I really wanted to root for that team, and I really don't like Kevin Love.
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